BP = Brent Pottenger
DS = Dr. Siegal
BP: Seth Roberts wrote a book about weight-loss, based on the set-point theory, by conducting research on himself. What is the theory behind your diet, and do you believe the set-point theory is true?
DS: I wrote a book some years ago in which I did discuss set-point. As far as it having any real practical value in a medical practice like my own: it doesn't. Because if you have to accept that there is a set-point for every individual, and some of these set-points are set very high, then you have to accept that the prospect of them losing weight is essentially impossible, and I simply don't accept that because the simple fact is that everyone can lose weight: if you don't eat, if you eat a reduced number of calories, you lose weight, that's all.
BP: Seth thinks that certain foods change the set-point.
DS: I don't have any evidence of that. I truly don't believe that.
BP: What is the theory behind your diet; is it based on a purely thermodynamic model?
DS: Well, I suppose that is true, but I don't like to make it sound so complicated. My theory is based on the fact that each one of us with normal activity requires a certain number of calories to maintain weight--you can call that a metabolic level if you want--and if you eat less than that amount, then of course, you lose weight, and if you eat more than that amount, you gain weight. So, yes, that is thermodynamics, but that sounds awfully academic.
BP: So, then, the source of the calories doesn't matter?
DS: You are asking if certain calories are more apt to take weight off than other calories? For example, are calories from protein more apt to take off weight than are those from carbohydrates? There is some evidence for that. In fact, that was a theory that was very prevalent up to about 30 or 40 years ago; it was called the Specific Dynamic Action of Protein. And this theory was very much in vogue and believed by many scientists. It said that if you eat carbohydrates, you end up with a plus amount of calories--you burn a certain number of calories in burning the carbohydrate, but you still end up with more calories than you started with. In the case of protein, it was believed, in digesting protein, that you burn up more calories than the protein provides, so that, in essence, if you ate nothing but protein, you would lose weight, no matter what quantity of protein. What happened to this theory is that it disappeared; no one ever disproved it; but, for whatever reason, it fell out of favor with scientists, and the truth of the matter is that I have never found any study that disproved that it was true. That's interesting, isn't it.
BP: Yes; it is. That's the tale of the history of modern nutrition because, for example, I happen to reject the notion that saturated animal fat causes heart disease. So, then, when you use the Cookie Diet in practice, I am assuming you use it as a short-term intervention that would lead to a more sustainable diet at some point. Or, is this a long-term course that you imagine for patients?
DS: It's neither short-term nor long-term, but rather, it's both depending upon how much weight each patient has to lose. If they have to use a little weight, it's short-term. If they have to lose a lot of weight, then it's long-term. But, it's a method of weight losss.
BP: Say someone did lose weight effectively, what would be an ideal diet for someone to transition into?
DS: Well, you are assuming that I want patients to transition into a different diet, and actually, you are correct. My particular interest is in the diet we use on our patients and advocate on the internet and on our Web site. What it is, is the use of this cookie that I have been manufacturing for 30 years as a source of hunger suppression; a means of controlling your hunger, as opposed to eating other foods that may stimulate your hungry. So, our patients and customers eat 6 cookies per day at times when they are hungry, and then they eat a sensible meal for dinner. The total calorie count for the cookies and the dinner is about 1,200 calories--which is what I advocate--and at that level, everyone loses weight: there are no failures when you eat 1,000 - 1,200 calories a day. Some people lose a little faster; some lose a little slower, but everyone loses weight. That is the method for losing weight and that should go on for as long as it takes to get to a normal weight. A person with a normal metabolism, normal activity, would probably maintain his/her weight on about 2,000 calories per day. So, on a diet like this, they would lose approximately 10 lbs. per month, so the time it would take to get to normal weight would vary, but at the rate of 10 lbs. per month, they would eventually lose it. Now, once they lose the weight, then comes the hardest part, and that's the hardest part--whether using my method or someone else's method, the problem is still the same: you are now faced with how to maintain the weight, and if you go back to old habits, with excessive calories, then, of course, you gain the weight back. Well, my preference for maintaining weight is to burn up more calories than you take in, and so that means exercise, and I am a big advocate for exercise, particularly the kind that burns calories like cardiovascular exercise and that is what I recommend to my patients and to people who follow my diet by going to our Web site or buying our products at Walgreen's or GNC.
BP: So, have you found there are particular ways of eating that people have trouble maintaining their weight on, or is it a problem across the board?
DS: Here is why specific foods matter: in terms of calories, no, they are all the same. But there are differences in different foods, and the real difference is in controlling hunger, or, for that matter, causing hunger. Without a doubt, carbohydrates are stimulating hunger--that's my opinion and the opinion of quite a few other medical doctors. Proteins, by contrast, are more satisfying for hunger than are carbohydrates. Now, strangely enough, the most satisfying for hunger are fats. But, the problem with fats is that is doesn't matter if they satisfy hunger if they give you more calories than you need. So, it's nice that fats satisfy hunger, but they also don't help that much with helping you lose weight. So, as you can guess, I am a big advocate of losing weight via a high protein diet, and in my most recent book,
Dr. Siegal's Cookie Diet, I go into great detail on the history of high protein diets over the ages, and I mean, from way back when. You know, the public has always embraced the idea of high protein diets as the way to lose weight--when I say always, I mean up until the last 30 years or so, and then we have this absolute reversal where we fall in love with carbohydrates, and what happens: obesity blossoms; its explodes. When I was first in practice, which was a long time ago in the 1950's, and way back then, about 50% of our population was overweight. Today, 65% of our population is overweight. I attribute it to following all their advice they are given by the so-called Ivory Tower of experts who advocate such things as complex carbohydrates and things of that sort. Obesity is totally out of control as a result of that kind of advice, and I guess I am watching to see when it reaches 100%, and somebody says, "Wait a minute; this is no way to control your weight."
BP: I am curious to hear how this all makes sense in terms of evolutionary history and how humans have consumed foods across millions of years?
DS: Oh yes! You'll have to read my book! That's what it is about. That's one of my favorite subjects. I believe that we are essentially meat-eaters, even thought the vegetarians will argue that we don't appear to be meat-eaters because we have teeth and nails like chimpanzees and so forth, but I explain this fully in the book, and I am not unique--I didn't come up with this idea--but a lot of anthropologists would agree with me in saying that we are adapted to be protein-eaters, to be meat-eaters. In fact, you and I are here today because our ancestors were meat-eaters: if they weren't, we wouldn't have survived, or the human race wouldn't have survived, and I believe we should remain meat-eaters, and I am not talking about steaks from Ruth's Chris--although they are pretty good--but I am talking about eating high protein foods like chicken, turkey, fish, seafood, that type of thing, because I believe we are far better adapted to eating that than we are to eating grains, fruits, and vegetables.
BP: How does fat factor into that? When thinking along those lines, in terms of evolution, anthropology research shows that people would have consumed lots more saturated animal fat?
DS: Well of course that's what they ate: if they ate meat, then they ate saturated fat--they ate animal fat. Keep in mind that the human race has been eating protein for millions of years. It's only in the last 10,000 years--which is like yesterday in the evolutionary process--that we started eating fruits and vegetables to any extent, and the reason for that is because the human race has always been nomadic; they were on the move; they didn't settle down to cities or villages. Why were they on the move? Because they had to follow the herd; they had to go where the animals were--that was their source of food. But about 10,000 years ago, that's when agriculture came in, and of course, if you are going to grow crops, you can't be on the move; you have to settle down. So, you form societies; you build cities; and, you develop a whole new type of lifestyle and you start eating these vegetables, which you are poorly adapted to, because for millions of years, you have been eating high protein foods. But, nonetheless, human beings are adaptable, and so for 10,000 years, we have been eating fruits and vegetables and grains and so forth, and it obviously wasn't much of a weight problem in the early days of agrarian societies because the lifestyles were much different; the lifestyles were hard; you had to burn up a lot of calories just to exist, to carry on your normal daily functions. But, of course, in the last 100 years, we have all these conveniences; we have elevators and automobiles, and we don't live on farms anymore; we live in the city; and so we don't burn the calories that we did back then, and so this high-carbohydrate diet that we are eating, I believe, is a major contributor to obesity.
BP: Are you aware of Dr. Weston Price?
DS: No, I haven't heard of him.
BP: He studied the diets of populations that were still eating according to their ancestral diets, and these people displayed excellent physical health despite not having access to modern Western medicine.
DS: I am not aware of his research, but I am aware of the concept. There have been many people who have studied that. One that I talk about extensively in my book is a researcher who lived among the Eskimos of western Canada and observed how healthy they were when they ate this high protein, very high fat diet--you know, whale blubber and so forth--and they were in excellent health and didn't have heart disease and dental cavities and so forth. So, yes, I am aware of the concept.
BP: Yes, it's the same concept, and I actually consume about 70% of my calories from fat.
DS: Really?
BP: Yes, and about 20ish% from protein and less than 10% from carbohydrates.
DS: Well, I am not too sure I can argue much with that. I don't know I see the advantage of all that fat. But, if you appear to be healthy, and your cholesterol is okay and your triglycerides are okay, it obviously isn't doing any harm. Now, all this is far away from what I really do. I don't go into the theoretical with my patients. I simply put them on a diet, after examining them and studying them, which involves a high protein cookie, but a particular mixture of proteins that is particularly hunger-suppressing, and this enables them to go all day with no real food: all they do is eat cookies during the day, and the number is 6--they are limited to 6--and then they eat a dinner. And, of course, these are people who need to lose weight, and it is very successful, if--and that's the big if--if they do exactly what they are supposed to do, and if they don't, then they are not as successful. In a diet like this, which is limited to 1,000 - 1,200 calories--and, in practice, I sometimes go much lower--on that regime, people lose weight very, very rapidly. I am a big advocate of fast weight loss. The reason is that there is no negative to it; there is no danger to fast weight loss. The advantage: it enhances the motivation of the individual to continue to lose weight. When my patient gets on the scale and sees real weight loss every month, she is encouraged to go on and finish the job. When you get on the scale, and you only see a pound per week come off, you say, "This is too much drudgery; this is too difficult; I can't do it; I am going to quite." So, there you have the essence of my theory: In order to lose weight effectively, to have an effective method, it has to be fast, and you have to control hunger because hunger wrecks diets, and everything I do is geared toward controlling hunger. I do it with a cookie, and it is a very effective way.
BP: Is the fiber and the protein combination of the cookie what controls hunger?
DS: No. Interesting question. If you do a little research, you will find a book I wrote way back called
Dr. Siegal's Natural Fiber Permanent Weight Loss Diet, in which I am a big, big advocate of eating a high fiber diet, not only as a way to lose weight, but to improve and support health, and I go into all the ramifications of that. However, admittedly, it is a much slower method than what I currently advocate, and the problem with a slower method is that people lose interest in a process that is slow. If they were to follow it, slow or not, everyone would get to their normal weight, but they drop off because of the slowness. See, you have to understand: you are dealing with real human beings, and what theoretically works is not what actually works in practice, and that's the problem. All the Ivory Tower experts suggest slow weight loss over a period of time--eat right, eat all the right things, and so forth--but guess what: nobody does it. They pay homage to it, but they don't do it, and that's my big criticism of most of the diets that are out there: yes, they would work if people would follow them; but, nobody follows them, so what good are they?
BP: Do you see benefits in caloric restriction?
DS: No. I don't participate in that, and the reason for that is those are super low-calorie diets; those are diets that are lower than what the government calls 'Very Low Calorie Diets'--800 calories or less. All those studies weren't so much directed toward losing weight but were aimed at longevity. It may be that these super low-calorie diets do increase your lifespan, but one of the problems with them, of course, is hunger, so it takes an awful lot of discipline to follow those kinds of diets. But, I am really not negative on them; I think it is admirable if someone is willing to do that, and probably not harmful. But, it's simply not the kind of diet that the masses are willing to follow, and that's what I have to deal with: masses of people.
BP: What about intermittent fasting?
DS: I see no advantage of fasting whatsoever. During that short period of time, obviously, you are deprived of all the basic things that you need to live. In the process of doing it, your metabolism drops because your body goes into this protective mode which is a very nice mechanism that keeps you alive a little longer when you are starving. I don't like it; I don't think fasting has any real value.
BP: Thank you. Is there anything you want to add?
DS: I would love for people to come to my Web site because there are a lot of tools that I have developed for people to lose weight. Particularly, there are a lot of calculators that I have developed that help people get a real handle on what they are facing: How long is it going to take to lose weight? My Web site is:
CookieDiet.com. I have treated 500,000 patients over the past 30-40 years, and so this is born of experience, with real people, not laboratory animals.
BP: Do people ever need to make sense of the diet to choose to go on it; do they need to see how it fits into a bigger picture of health?
DS: Absolutely. Well, we have many, many advocates, but, at the same time, there are some people who have no interest. What they are looking for is magic; the magic pill that you take and the weight will just drop off. The world is still full of people who are not willing to 'bite-the-bullet', so to speak.
BP: Thank you very much for your time.